The Lawyer's Escape Pod

Travis Hornsby tells us how to break free from the student loan albatross

Travis Hornsby is a Chartered Financial Analyst and the founder of Student Loan Planner, a company that helps analyze the best repayment paths for people with significant student debt. Travis gets into detail about strategies that will allow you to manage those loans without having to be stuck in a job you hate. This means getting into quite a bit of math - and it’s a complicated system. But don’t be turned off! Travis does a great job of outlining the basic principles. If you take nothing else away - just know that there are resources to be leveraged and you really don’t have to be a slave to your student debt.

Topics we discuss:

• Student loan debt does not be an albatross
• Federal loans do not always have to be paid back
• The answer is not always to trap yourself at a big firm until 100% of your loans are paid off
• Consider income-based repayment options with loan forgiveness at the end of the term, even outside public interest work
• Tax deductions, simple interest, and a simple savings plan can help you account for a balloon payment at the end of your loan term, even at a lower income level
• You can set it up so your debt is a percentage of your taxable income (whatever that is) - not a flat number, which means you aren’t as stuck as you may feel
• There are some situations in which your loan forgiveness wouldn’t be taxable at all
• A slight difference in your savings rate can translate to retiring 10-15 years earlier
• You have more control over your living expenses than you may feel
• Public service loan forgiveness programs are available, do not be discouraged. If you have pre-2010 loans, you may just need to consolidate to have the right kind of loan
• Public service forgiveness has a shorter timeline and isn’t taxable
• Refinancing makes sense in some circumstances, but be sure to shop around

 

Student Loan Planner for Lawyers - https://www.studentloanplanner.com/category/lawyer/

Refinancing Loans -https://www.studentloanplanner.com/how-to-refinance-law-school-loans/

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com 

Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/465965087538268/

Clara Jung leans into her impulsivity and leaves litigation to build her own interior design firm

After almost 5 years in litigation practice, Clara Jung found herself dissatisfied with practicing and considering her next steps. Initially, she looked into legal recruiting. But, after not getting any traction there, she didn’t give up - she just went back to the drawing board. She thought about what genuinely interested her - whether or not it had any legal connection. She realized that interior design was something she’s always enjoyed, but had dismissed as an unrealistic career option. She did a little research, and then took a big leap of faith. There was definitely a transition period, and owning your own business always has its challenges. But Clara has built a very successful design firm, and has no regrets about her career path. 

In this episode, we discuss:

• Switching practice areas can almost feel as daunting as switching careers
• The process of thinking about how to leave practice took 1.5 years 
• Ultimately, life is too short to do something that makes you unhappy
• Clara considered recruiting, but didn’t get traction. But, she kept exploring.
• Look to the hobbies and interests that you love 
• There may be career options you dismissed as before because they didn’t seem like realistic, responsible options
• Clara figured out the basics of the industry, and what kind of financial adjustments need to be made - but didn’t wait until she knew 100% before jumping in
• You can’t know you’ll be successful in a new field until you try it
• Think of going back to practice as a safety net, if it helps you to make a jump. 
• We do all have different financial realities to account for. Don’t let it derail you, it may just push your timeline
• Project management and attention to detail are hugely useful transferable skills
• Owning your own business is a particular challenge, but comes with the payoff of more flexibility and independence 
• You may have to let go of the pride of being a fancy lawyer
• Thinking of practicing law as a useful chapter, rather than a huge life mistake 

Banner Day SF: http://www.bannerdaysf.com/

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com 

Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/465965087538268/

Annie Little helps rid us of lawyer-brain and get on the path to a happier career

Today's guest is Annie Little. She is a former lawyer, and now a career coach specializing in coaching lawyers. Annie walks us through a very helpful framework on thinking through a career shift. It means going back to the drawing board and asking ourselves about our core values. It means training ourselves to think differently. It’s not a quick fix, but a helpful approach for long-term satisfaction.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Taking care of your physical and mental health
• The difference between working for lawyers and working with lawyers
• There are easily accessible, low-investment programs that could be a starting point for you
• If you prioritize the deeper self-reflection, clarity can come quickly
• Turning an epiphany into action is challenging; it’s tempting to fall back into the status quo
• Lawyer-brain is a thing; it will make you focus on all the possible negative outcomes rather than positive possibilities
• The fear of making a mistake can be paralyzing; you have to work through that
• You can change your thought patterns to break away from the limiting stories you tell yourself 
• Identifying your core values
• Identifying the place you want your career to fill in your life
• What would you do if you knew you couldn’t fail?
• The process may be non-linear. And that’s ok
• Resilience is a skill, you can build it

JD Nation: www.thejdnation.com

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com 

Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/465965087538268/

Year-End Wrap-Up and Top 6 Lessons (I know it should be 5 or 10, but 6 is what I’ve got)

This mini episode is a quick season/year-end wrap-up. I wanted to thank you all for listening. It's been great hearing from some of you, and I'm glad you're finding it helpful. Please be in touch if you have any thoughts on topics, careers paths, or other questions you'd like me to cover.

Top 6 Lessons:

(1) You are smart. You can learn how to do something new, and to succeed.

(2) Take Action. As lawyers, we are thinkers, planners, researchers. But the only way to really make a change is to act. 

(3) Let go of your death grip on certainty. You don’t have to know exactly what your career will look like from now until retirement before you make a change.

(4) Your legal training isn't a waste, it's your super power. Going to law school and being a lawyer will serve you well no matter where your career path takes you. 

(5) You need to take care of yourself - physically and mentally. 

(6) You are not alone.

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com 

Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/465965087538268/

Adam Oliver tries multiple law firms and practice areas before leaving practice to run his own legal recruiting company

Adam Oliver is the Managing Director of Firm Prospects, which offers data-driven market intelligence for legal search professionals. Out of law school, Adam practiced corporate law in a number of firms before deciding it was time to pull the plug. His experience working with legal recruiters during his firm jumps opened his eyes to that profession. He took the leap and started his own legal recruiting company. After years of doing that, he saw a pain point in the industry and decided he could solve it. So, he’s built a second company, which he’s now running.

Topics covered:

• The disconnect between what you study and what you practice
• Coming into law school with an idealistic idea of environmental law; but realizing most jobs in the field are on the corporate side
• Adam gave it a shot at many different firms and practice areas to see if there was anything that he enjoyed, but he still wasn’t happy
• Career options you would not have thought of in a vacuum present themselves to you along the way if you’re paying attention
• You don’t have to be completely certain that the next job is perfect; sometimes you just need something good enough to get you moving
• Consider ancillary aspects of a job like flexibility - it could allow you to get your “it” somewhere else
• Adam started his own recruiting company out of the gates, believing he could figure out the job on his own
• Building strong relationships along the way can pay off in critical moments along your journey
• Without having practiced, Adam couldn’t have ended up starting either of the companies he has
• Risk is in the eye of the beholder: Adam felt like staying at a firm was riskier than leaving 

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com 

Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/465965087538268/

Jonathan Laubinger has no regrets about leaving practice before he even started for a career as an actuary

Jonathan Laubinger is an actuary at Argonaut Insurance Company. Jon earned his JD/MBA thinking he’d go into politics or antitrust law. But before he ever even practiced law, his path took a turn towards insurance and the actuarial field. I think Jon has a really interesting perspective. For him, leaving the practice of law wasn’t wasting all the effort he put into earning his degree. It was just part of an ongoing learning journey. Mindset and perspective matter so much in how we experience our situation.

We discussed:

• Why going straight to law school after undergrad is a bad idea
• The difficulty of navigating a career so young, with so much debt
• An initial interest in politics was derailed by the need to get a higher paying job
• Coming out of JD/MBA program meaning to practice law, but never actually doing so
• Being open to learning new things and following your interests
• How there is time to pursue even a credential-intensive career after law school
• Sometimes a fulfilling career path is found in unexpected places 
• Leaving practice isn’t failing; it’s just moving on to learn something new
• It isn’t self-indulgent to keep reaching for something that brings you fulfillment 
• Take a sabbatical; write a screenplay 
• Embrace your creativity 
• Remember how lucky we are to have choices; you do have freedom

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com 

Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/465965087538268/

Jonathan Liu leaves employment law to become a real estate agent and investor

Jonathan Liu is a realtor at H&M Realty Group and President of Res Ipsa Real Estate Solutions. As his company name hints, he’s a lawyer turned real estate agent and investor. Jonathan practiced primarily in the employment law area. For a while it was the sensible decision to stick with something secure in light of his growing family. On the side, though, he had begun investing in rental properties. Eventually, it became clear to him that taking the riskier road was more aligned with what he wanted to do and the lessons he wanted to teach his daughter. 

Topics we discussed:

• Lean on mentors, although ones within your firm may not have sufficient perspective 
• What to do when you realize that partnership is not your goal 
• Experimenting with different practice settings
• Different things make sense in different seasons of your life 
• “Achievement without fulfillment is the greatest failure” - Tony Robbins 
• Seeking alignment between your beliefs and actions; especially in light of trying to teach kids lessons
• We often lean on excuses (reasonable as they may be) to avoid the discomfort of taking risks 
• You have to be comfortable with being uncomfortable for a minute
• There may be moments of questioning your decision, but that just comes with the territory 
• Its challenging, scary, fun, and doable to figure out how to do new things
• Even with the risks, he wish he’d made the change earlier

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com 

Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/465965087538268/

Rachel Solomon leaves litigation to pursue storytelling: first as a freelance writer, then as a novelist, and ultimately through brand creation at her own firm

My guest today is Rachel Solomon, who is the Founder and Creative Director at Honor Code Creative, a branding company that offers a full spectrum of creative, design, copy, editorial, PR and marketing services for her clients. Rachel started off in big law litigation, but realized after a few different positions that practicing law just wasn’t the right fit. She pursued her interests in writing and fashion, which put her on a path from copywriter to PR strategist and ultimately to company founder.

In this episode, we discussed:

• Changing firms allows you to narrow down what it is you do and don’t like about practicing and could give you clarity about whether practicing at all is right for you
• Junior associate work is inherently rough, but do you look ahead and want to do what the senior associates or partners are doing?
• There are still real challenges to being a woman in a firm
• Just because you’re doing the job well and getting positive feedback doesn’t mean it’s the right fit. Hint: if you’re bawling regularly at work, it’s probably not a good fit
• “Quitting is brave and empowering”
• There are pull-off-the-BandAid moments when shifting careers, just do it and move on
• Put yourself out there and meet new people; even if you hate the idea of networking
• Don’t be discouraged when looking at dream positions if you don’t have the exact list of qualifications
• Find a place where you can grow and have some control over your career trajectory
• You can restart multiple times
• Coaching is a great resource that can help you clarify what you want and get un-stuck
• Do 3 small things a day to move yourself forward, whether it’s asking someone to coffee, setting up a coaching sessions, or reading a relevant book
• What you’re doing and who you are need to be aligned

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com 

Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/465965087538268/

 

Adam Friedl tells us how he transitioned from public interest law to software engineering

Adam Friedl spent many years practicing in various public interest organizations. One of these organizations was a non-profit technology company with the mission of  improving access to justice. Working there sparked an interest in the tech side of things, and he started teaching himself to code on the side. Fast forward a few years, and he’s left the law completely to be a full time software engineer.

The topics we touch on:

• Going to law school because it seemed practical, not because he felt uniquely drawn to it
• The mission of your organization matters in your satisfaction level; but so does the underlying daily work and environment
• You might find yourself in a position that opens your eyes to something new; and if you’re intrigued - lean into it
• If you find something you love to do, even when you aren’t being paid, really consider if that could be turned into a full-time job
• Assume you can learn new skills, because you can and you’ll probably love the process
• Many fields are less credential-oriented than law and relatively easy to break into  
• A lot of us are traumatized by navigating the legal job market, but don’t let that scare you off from trying something new
• Having the emotional support of your spouse, in particular, can make all the difference
• People do this - leave the law for new careers. There’s no reason why you can’t be one of them. 

Website: thelawyersescapepod.com

Melissa Lorenzo-Herve tells us how she ditched big law for a dual career in legal publishing and fashion

Melissa Lorenzo-Herve is a Senior Attorney Editor at the Practical Law Company (a division of Thompson Reuters), as well as the CEO and Creative Director of Pirouette NYC, a clothing line for the professional woman. Melissa tells us about how she built this dual career after leaving the practice of law.

In this episode we discuss:

• That the area of law that attracted you is often not where you end up practicing 
• How, even if you work with nice people, it may not be enough to keep you going if you’re working insane hours
• Looking at the lawyers ahead of you, does their work/life balance seem any better? Is that the path you want to stay on?
• Feeling hesitant to leave practice because of the time and money commitment
• Taking the time to go for a walk, and giving yourself space to actually think about what you might want to do next: Then write it down!
• Getting clear on what it is that you do and don't like about practicing - it can be different for each of us
• That legal publishing can be a way to lean into the academic side of law you might have liked without the client-based work
• Talking to people about your potential career shift is important - it is likely to open doors to new ideas and new contacts 
• How you can pursue two things at the same time. A side hustle is a great route to pursue a passion
• How it makes no sense to be miserable for the next 40 years because in your early 20s you decided to go to law school