The Lawyer's Escape Pod

Jan Newman leaves Big Law to earn her PhD and become a licensed clinical psychologist and executive coach

Dr. Jan Newman is a licensed clinical psychologist, certified executive coach, and former Big Law attorney who works with multi-passionate high achievers who want to level up their lives. 

Jan shows us how to take a scientific, systematic approach to leaving law and finding a new career. This process is an experiment: outline your ideas, try them out, learn from the feedback. Don’t expect to have all the answers all at once. But, if you stick with it - you’ll eventually find a good career fit.

 

Jan has very generously offered 3 free 45-minute sessions to listeners who reference this podcast. So, I’d highly encourage you to jump on that!

 

In this episode, we discuss:

• Jan knew from Day 1 that law school wasn’t the right fit
• “You really don’t have time to think about why you’re there, you’re just trying to survive”
• The law firm bubble leads you to feel like this just what working life is
• Don’t listen to nay-sayers who haven’t realized there are alternative paths yet
• Networking and mentorship can make all the difference
• Test out different options/interests and learn from the feedback
• Jan actively tried out psychology, wedding photography, and dive instructing to learn what would be the best long-term fit
• It’s ok if the first experiment doesn’t solve all the problems
• Some issues can be solved by a better practice area or geographic fit
• You can make money doing something you enjoy
• Thinking through the costs and benefits of an additional degree
• Don’t let the stress and dissatisfaction grow; it can become a more wide-spread problem
• You have to get your mindset, thoughts, and emotions under control before having the space to dive into larger questions

Jan Newman Coaching: jannewmancoaching.com

Jan Newman Resources: https://drjannewman.com/resources

 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/ 

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com

Heather Hubbard leaves law firm partnership to start a personal and professional development company

Heather Hubbard is a former Intellectual Property and Entertainment lawyer who practiced for 10 years before being drawn by her unique talents into starting her own personal and professional development company. She tells us about her journey out of practice, the limits we place on ourselves as lawyers, and tools we can leverage to help us move ourselves forward.

In this episode, we discus:

• Heather wasn’t miserable, she just realized there was a better fit in another roll
• It can take some time and reflection to realize you have unique strengths; something you may think everyone is good out might actually be your particular zone of genius
• Overthinking a change may keep you stuck
• Law practice can be seen as a building block rather than something you abandoned 
• Lawyers make it so hard on ourselves 
• We are black and white thinkers, which puts undue pressure on us to find the “right” answers 
• Mindfulness and thought work help people reframe their thinking
• You need to give yourself time and space to gain perspective
• You’ll take your baggage with you, so do the work upfront 
• Heather offers a variety of services and also hosts a podcast: Hustle & Flow

Heather Hubbard: https://www.heatherjoyhubbard.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/ 

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com

Summer Challenge: Take Action

Summer Challenge!! Today’s episode is a little different. Instead of having a guest, I wanted us to take some of the inspiration we’ve gotten here and elsewhere and turn it into action. We can consume advice, wisdom, and ideas until we’re blue in the face. But, we need to translate that into action in our lives if we want to see real change. I think the important thing is that you don’t have to take one big, dramatic step. The idea is to just start showing up for yourself and doing the small things that ultimately add up to big things. So - in July and August - let’s all pick one thing we’re going to actually do. It could be hiring a career coach, taking a class on any topic of interest, starting a meditation habit, etc. I walk through a few ideas in this episode - but the world is your oyster. Most importantly - just pick something and do it! And I’d love to hear what you guys are doing - so shoot me a note!

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/ 

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com

Alex Su leaves big law litigation for legal technology sales

Alex Su is a former big law litigator who now does business development and sales within the legal technology industry. Currently, he is the Director of Business Development at Evisort, an AI-powered contract intelligence platform. Alex talks about taking the time to reflect on his interests and natural inclinations, and how this allowed him to identify his unique set of skills. His thick skin and talent for persuasion may not have found their place in litigation, but he uses them all the time in sales.  

• Being a litigation associate is nothing like what it looks like on TV
• Look at the associates and partners ahead of you and think whether their job/life is something that appeals to you
• Trying different practice environments can help you identify whether your dissatisfaction is with the type of practice, or with being a lawyer all together
• Alex even started his own firm, which highlighted to him that he loved the sales and marketing work more than the law practice
• Identify the core of what you enjoy; for Alex it was working with people
• Look back at what has come naturally to you in the past; you have a unique set of skills
• Really devote some time and effort to introspection to identify your skills and challenges 
• You might find your answer faster by slowing down
• Finding success in a legal career doesn’t mean it’s the best fit for your skills or your happiness
• Lots of real conversations are happening on LinkedIn
• Don’t get overly focused by moving up the ladder in any field; it may not lead you to a position that plays to your strengths
• Keep an open mind
• Follow your own internal guide, not a set of job listings

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/ 

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com

Mary Cobb tells about how she took a break from law to learn to paint in Italy, and now combines her careers in law and art

Mary Cobb is both an artist and a working lawyer. She tells us about how she left full-time practice to move to Italy and learn to paint. She’s now built a dual career, returning to practice as a staff attorney while building her art business on the side. I think her story gives a good glimpse into how pursuing your interests and passions can be balanced with a legal job, if that’s where your comfort zone lies.

• Sometimes the life you carefully built no longer makes sense to you
• It’s ok to make a change, even if you feel like you're too old to
• Get your eat, pray, love on
• Explore your artistic side, you might find you have one
• You can leverage your legal skills through contract work to fund a break, exploration stint, etc.
• Longer term, there are staff attorney roles at law firms that allow you to balance being a lawyer, making money, and exploring an interest/passion
• You can balance careers, but it requires holding your boundaries clearly
• You can gradually let go your attachment to the lawyer identity 
• Covid-19 may present opportunities to advocate for a new balance for yourself

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/ 

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com

Former Lawyer: https://www.formerlawyer.com/collab/

Alexis Robertson talks leaving litigation to run diversity and inclusion programs in Big Law, and what really needs to happen to achieve progress

Alexis Robertson is the Director of Diversity & Inclusion at Foley & Lardner LLP where she provides firm-wide strategic direction and oversight on all diversity and inclusion related matters. Alexis talks to us about her journey out of litigation to recruiting, and ultimately to diversity and inclusion work. We speak about the structural racism within our industry and the challenges law firms face in making meaningful progress on diversity and inclusion with respect not only to recruiting, but work allocation, mentorship, and professional development. Ultimately, Alexis tells us that the work begins at the individual level and challenges us to all do the hard, introspective work of examining our roles in perpetuating discrimination. Only then can we really effect the widespread changes needed in our firms, industry, and communities.

We discuss:

• Try to identify your “through-line”, the thing that seems to pull you to your next step
• If you make a step, and realize it’s still not a fit, just keep moving; it’s not a sign of failure
• The pillars of diversity and inclusion (D&I) are recruiting, retention, and promotion
• “Best practices” is a tricky term because is can sometimes just mean “minimum baseline requirement”
• D&I can’t be treated as a separate office; to be effective, its principles have to be at the core of every decision made
• This moment in history could be an opportunity to push firms to incorporate these policies/practices more pervasively
• Law firms fall on a spectrum of how deep this work goes; how committed they are to changing not only statistics, but their internal culture
• The practice of only hiring from the top law schools has the effect of eliminating a pipeline of strong candidates (many of whom are minorities) who have selected other law schools for financial, family, or other reasons 
• Firms are risk averse and not inclined towards early adoption; but someone has to start changing this limited hiring system
• Addressing affinity bias in work allocation, promotion, mentoring is key
• We each have to do real self reflection on our own implicit bias: who we interact with, what our hard-wired reactions are to people, etc.
• Get uncomfortable
• The challenge is to keep engaged with this work even though we don’t “have to”
• We, as lawyers, need to put our money where I mouth is with our commitment to justice

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/ 

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com

Annie Little talks about shifts in law practice and career searches in the Covid-19 era

For the first episode after this Covid-19 break, I’m speaking again with Annie Little, a former lawyer turned career coach specializing in coaching lawyers. We jump right into what this new reality means for lawyers thinking about career shifts. There are obviously a lot of challenges in this new reality, but there are also a lot of opportunities. And I hope this episode is more hopeful than anything.

We discuss:

• Big firms are generally cutting salaries over laying off lawyers 
• Will some of these structural changes, like remote work and flexible hours, become permanent or more prevalent?
• Will law firms lean on people working from home to be available 24/7?
• It’s ok to feel disoriented, off-balance, and anxious
• How people are proceeding with exit planning in a world of uncertainty
• Be kind to yourself - don’t judge yourself more harshly than you would someone else
• Some people need a break from making big moves, others might find they have the time and space to give it more attention
• Don’t let this totally derail you from your hopes and dreams
• Take the time to speak to people and network
• We’ve spent our lives trying to keep “stable” jobs, just to find out that nothing is truly risk-free

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/ 

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com

Chris Gillett leaves litigation to become a headshot photographer

After nearly two decades in litigation practice, Chris Gillett took his hobby of photography and grew it to a full-time headshot photography business. Chris shows us that prioritizing time pursuing an interest can open up doors down the road. His story also emphasizes a theme we’ve discussed before: there are seasons in your life and career if you allow there to be. 

In this episode, we discuss:

• It is possible to enjoy the people you work with, but still hate practicing
• Inertia keeps you in place, and life circumstances can make you feel particularly stuck
• Timing is everything - be open to windows of opportunity
• Pursuing your interests as hobby can remove the pressure of perfection
• Your interests can lead to a new full-time career in the long run (or just a few years)
• You aren’t likely to be great at a new thing right away - that’s ok
• Be bold and make connections
• It’s hard to throw yourself into work that you ultimately don’t care about
• Someone else suggesting you take a leap can somehow make it feel more realistic 
• Fear holds you back
• Be realistic about how long it takes to build a full-time business, even when you’ve been doing a side hustle. Don’t be discouraged too early 
• Everything becomes easier when you get clarity on what you want to do 
• Prestige is a matter of interpretation/perspective 

Chris Gillett Studios: https://liketherazor.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/ 

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com

Josh Ferguson leaves legislative practice to be a stay-at-home dad

My guest today is Josh Ferguson, a Research Consultant at Common Good, a government reform think tank. Josh practiced at a firm for a few years, then moved into legislative work at the Maryland State House, which he loved (making him a little bit of a different case than some of my other guests). But, with a baby on the way, his wife got a new job in a new city. They wanted one of them to stay home with the kids, so as it shook out - Josh decided to leave practice to be a stay-at-home dad for 12 years. There are so many different paths you can take - even in a household with two former lawyers and a pile of law school debt. And if and when it’s time to change, just know that you’ll be able to handle it. 

• Some people actually enjoy practicing
• Life can intervene to change your path
• Living somewhere more affordable opens up a lot of options for alternatives that pay less
• Leaving practice to become a stay-at-home dad
• Coordinating careers, family, and location
• Nothing is permanent. If you change things up and it doesn’t work, just change things again
• Letting go of the idea of being a lawyer opens up options
• Law school and practicing build so many transferable skills
• Think of your law degree as a selling point to open up opportunities, not as handcuffs
• Jumping back into the job market after 12 years at home with kids has its challenges
• Always leverage your network
• Think creatively about pitching yourself to new jobs in new industries

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/ 

Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com

Angela Han tells us how she built a dual career in law and health coaching

Angela Han is Corporate Counsel at HealthPro Heritage, runs her own company, Angela Han Health, and hosts the podcast Fit to Practice. Angela gives us some great tips on how to devote time to a side hustle you love while you’re still practicing. She’s not looking to move out of law completely. You could find a dual career balance, as she has. Or maybe you take her approach as a stepping stone towards fully leaving the law. Either way, she really shows us what it means to purposefully build the life you want. And we get some tips on how to be a lawyer and be healthy….not always easy!

In today’s episode, we discuss:

• Balancing cultural and family expectations around careers
• Building a side business while still practicing
• Identifying your biggest life pain point could spark inspiration for a new path
• Angela’s recovery from an eating disorder made it clear to her that health and wellness were core values to her
• Becoming a personal trainer while in law school
• Being a lawyer by day, personal trainer by night 
• It is possible to find a legal job that allows you the time and flexibility to have a side hustle 
• No one is going to hand you flexibility or an unconventional working arrangement. You have to ask. Advocate for yourself.
• Think proactively and purposefully about building a life (both career and personal) that you want
• Angela’s two jobs are complementary: being a lawyer helps her serve her clients
• It is possible to make space for health and fitness, even with a crazy schedule

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/ 

Fit to Practice podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/fit-to-practice-with-angela-han/id1463128400

Designing Your Life - https://designingyour.life/the-book/